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waynesway
waynesway g Wayne Flannery
24 Post(s)
24 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted

Currently I am training for weight gain but what to switch to strength gain. So how do switch and what is the difference?

Whisper
Whisper p+ Kostas Kroustaloudis
687 Post(s)
687 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Train for a sport Date Joined: September 9, 2011
Posted
Posted By: waynesway

Currently I am training for weight gain but what to switch to strength gain. So how do switch and what is the difference?

Hey dude. Its a good thing that you asked this.

Contrary to what people think, you CANT train for weight gain/size/muscle gain/hypertrophy. Its impossible to do that. You can only train for strength or endurance and as a BY-PRODUCT you get MASS. So, PROGRESS in strength or muscle endurance leads to muscle gains. Dont let people fool you with that crap, 8-10 reps are for hypertrophy and 1-5 is for strength etc etc. This is not the case.

What is strength? If you can bench press 225 for 5 reps today and 230 for 5 reps tomorrow, you gained strength so you gained mass. IF you can bench press 135 for 20reps today and you can bench press 150 for 20 tomorrow, you gained strength so you gained mass. If you can bench press 135 today for 8 reps and 135 tomorrow for 10 reps, you gained strength so you gained mass. See where this is going? Lower reps and heavier weights will lead to muscle gains due to mechanical tension, while higher reps with moderate weights will lead to muscle gains due to metabolic fatigue meaning higher volume meaning more work done in less time. So, people always say 8-10 reps is best because they want to get the best of 2 worlds and mix strength and endurance together. Yes, this works, but it doesnt work better than only doing 5 reps or only doing 15 reps. But even if you are training in the 5 rep range, you are still getting some muscle endurance, and if you train in the 20 reps range you still get some strength gains. What I m saying is that when you train in the 5 rep range you gain 90%/10% mass gains from strength/endurance. When you train in the 8-10 rep range you gain 50%/50% mass gains from strength/endurance. And finally, when you train in thr 12-25 rep range you gain 10%/90% mass gains from strength/endurance. I hope I didnt confuse u with this. Keep in mind those numbers are not even close to be exact.

So, you want to switch it up to pure strength. Best thing to do would be to focus on progressions. Choose a rep range, choose the basic exercises and go with that. Squats, deadlifts and presses should be your main focus, with some accessory work on the side, like pullups and rows. You are going to get huge though :D

Do you have any questions man?

#HTH!
Kostas

Muscular Strength Athlete and Content Manager 6 Years Lifting Experience Bachelors in Molecular Chemistry/Biochemistry, Working towards Masters Lifting Style & Philosophy : Aikido, Energy, Balance, Flexibility, Posture
waynesway
waynesway g Wayne Flannery
24 Post(s)
24 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted

Sounds good to me thanks.

jmboiardi
jmboiardi p John M Boiardi
2.6K Post(s)
2.6K Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted
Posted By: Whisper

Hey dude. Its a good thing that you asked this.

Contrary to what people think, you CANT train for weight gain/size/muscle gain/hypertrophy. Its impossible to do that. You can only train for strength or endurance and as a BY-PRODUCT you get MASS. So, PROGRESS in strength or muscle endurance leads to muscle gains. Dont let people fool you with that crap, 8-10 reps are for hypertrophy and 1-5 is for strength etc etc. This is not the case.

What is strength? If you can bench press 225 for 5 reps today and 230 for 5 reps tomorrow, you gained strength so you gained mass. IF you can bench press 135 for 20reps today and you can bench press 150 for 20 tomorrow, you gained strength so you gained mass. If you can bench press 135 today for 8 reps and 135 tomorrow for 10 reps, you gained strength so you gained mass. See where this is going? Lower reps and heavier weights will lead to muscle gains due to mechanical tension, while higher reps with moderate weights will lead to muscle gains due to metabolic fatigue meaning higher volume meaning more work done in less time. So, people always say 8-10 reps is best because they want to get the best of 2 worlds and mix strength and endurance together. Yes, this works, but it doesnt work better than only doing 5 reps or only doing 15 reps. But even if you are training in the 5 rep range, you are still getting some muscle endurance, and if you train in the 20 reps range you still get some strength gains. What I m saying is that when you train in the 5 rep range you gain 90%/10% mass gains from strength/endurance. When you train in the 8-10 rep range you gain 50%/50% mass gains from strength/endurance. And finally, when you train in thr 12-25 rep range you gain 10%/90% mass gains from strength/endurance. I hope I didnt confuse u with this. Keep in mind those numbers are not even close to be exact.

So, you want to switch it up to pure strength. Best thing to do would be to focus on progressions. Choose a rep range, choose the basic exercises and go with that. Squats, deadlifts and presses should be your main focus, with some accessory work on the side, like pullups and rows. You are going to get huge though :D

Do you have any questions man?

#HTH!
Kostas

Exactly. I would also add a couple of things - and potentially cause more confusion :-). Strength potential is pre-determined by genetics. What I mean by this is your tendon attachment points. Strength is as much leverage as it is muscle size and number of fibers contracting. If you understand basic physics, you will see why this is the case. Take bicep curls for instance. The further out onto your ulna (forearm) your distal tendon (elbow side) attaches, the more weight you can lift with less muscle mass. For chest, the further out your pectoral tendon attaches to your humerus (upper arm) the more weight you can lift with less muscle mass. This is why you sometimes see these "small" wirey guys who can push some serious weight relative to their size.

 

Muscle mass, as Kostas pointed out, is a by-product of strength training and volume training (endurance). Not all big, muscular guys are strong because the training for volume (endurance) is different from the training for strength. You will get strong and the degree of strength gain depends on your tendon attachment points as discussed above. Training in the 8-10 rep range versus the 2,3 or 5x5 will combine the benefits of low rep training with higher rep training as Kostas mentioned. When you keep the rep range low (5 and under), you can train with heavier weights as the muscle doesn't have to burn glucose over a longer time span. Higher reps cause the muscle to need to burn glucose over a longer time span so the amount of weight lifted tends to be somewhat less than when doing lower reps. While it is true in both instances the muscle is burning glucose to lift the weight, it is the added dimension of TUT (Time Under Tension) that reduces the weight. Regardless, both are critical to strength and endurance gain.

 

You could also do classic pyramiding which is 10-8-6-4 in reps while increasing the weight. Based on this, I would combine some 5x5 training for the exercises you want to build strength on (plenty of videos on this on SHF) and some volume training in the 8-12 range. This will maximize your strength as well as size gains.

 

John

34 years of lifting and nutritional experience and resident "old man" :-) MS Athlete and past Super Hermanite since 2013.
Whisper
Whisper p+ Kostas Kroustaloudis
687 Post(s)
687 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Train for a sport Date Joined: September 9, 2011
Posted
Posted By: jmboiardi

Exactly. I would also add a couple of things - and potentially cause more confusion :-). Strength potential is pre-determined by genetics. What I mean by this is your tendon attachment points. Strength is as much leverage as it is muscle size and number of fibers contracting. If you understand basic physics, you will see why this is the case. Take bicep curls for instance. The further out onto your ulna (forearm) your distal tendon (elbow side) attaches, the more weight you can lift with less muscle mass. For chest, the further out your pectoral tendon attaches to your humerus (upper arm) the more weight you can lift with less muscle mass. This is why you sometimes see these "small" wirey guys who can push some serious weight relative to their size.

 

Muscle mass, as Kostas pointed out, is a by-product of strength training and volume training (endurance). Not all big, muscular guys are strong because the training for volume (endurance) is different from the training for strength. You will get strong and the degree of strength gain depends on your tendon attachment points as discussed above. Training in the 8-10 rep range versus the 2,3 or 5x5 will combine the benefits of low rep training with higher rep training as Kostas mentioned. When you keep the rep range low (5 and under), you can train with heavier weights as the muscle doesn't have to burn glucose over a longer time span. Higher reps cause the muscle to need to burn glucose over a longer time span so the amount of weight lifted tends to be somewhat less than when doing lower reps. While it is true in both instances the muscle is burning glucose to lift the weight, it is the added dimension of TUT (Time Under Tension) that reduces the weight. Regardless, both are critical to strength and endurance gain.

 

You could also do classic pyramiding which is 10-8-6-4 in reps while increasing the weight. Based on this, I would combine some 5x5 training for the exercises you want to build strength on (plenty of videos on this on SHF) and some volume training in the 8-12 range. This will maximize your strength as well as size gains.

 

John

I agree with all of this. And If I may, let me throw in my personal experience on this.
I had been training with ridiculous volumes for 2 years. Drop sets, super sets, giant sets everywhere. My recovery was good, although I was always sore. And to be honest, I got excellent results, but they came to a stop after 2 years. I tried increasing my calories, my protein, switching my routines etc.etc. All kinds of techniques. Couldnt advance anymore. So for the past 5 months I have switched to powerlifting type training. I work with heavy weights and low reps. I do 2-3 basic exercises first, doing about 3-5 reps and 3-5 sets, and then I supplement some smaller exercises like the face pull which are basically corrective exercises to keep my body in balance. My strength increased dramatically and my size did too. So for me, only heavy training with deload weeks from now on. I got really tired from that huge volume stuff. Of course, it works differently for different people, but thats just my experience.

P.S. You feel so badass when you deadlift 450 for 2 reps :D haha

Muscular Strength Athlete and Content Manager 6 Years Lifting Experience Bachelors in Molecular Chemistry/Biochemistry, Working towards Masters Lifting Style & Philosophy : Aikido, Energy, Balance, Flexibility, Posture
Jordangelowitz
Jordangelowitz g Jordan Gelowitz
15 Post(s)
15 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: February 2, 2014
Posted

I personal approve of all these statements! But just one thing to remember is that everyone's body is different, what might work for Kostas might not work for Wayne. If I may make a suggestion I would say to experiment with different types of lifting, try high volume for a month, if no results try out low volume heavy weight, if that doesn't work, try out a combination of both. See where I'm going here? In my experience nobody can tell you exactly what to do to see the maximum amount of results, you should experiment, record results, and switch it up from time to time!

 

Hope that helps a little bit :)

 

But all in all, keep up the hard work! Because #HTH

Whisper
Whisper p+ Kostas Kroustaloudis
687 Post(s)
687 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Train for a sport Date Joined: September 9, 2011
Posted
Posted By: Jordangelowitz

I personal approve of all these statements! But just one thing to remember is that everyone's body is different, what might work for Kostas might not work for Wayne. If I may make a suggestion I would say to experiment with different types of lifting, try high volume for a month, if no results try out low volume heavy weight, if that doesn't work, try out a combination of both. See where I'm going here? In my experience nobody can tell you exactly what to do to see the maximum amount of results, you should experiment, record results, and switch it up from time to time!

 

Hope that helps a little bit :)

 

But all in all, keep up the hard work! Because #HTH

That is true. Although, most of the time, the advice we are giving as SHs is what works for the majority of people, and then sometimes we add our own personal experience if asked. And when I say majority I mean more than 99% of people. Our advice is also guided towards natural athletes and gym goers. Most of the advice someone might find over the internet is usually mis-guided and it is about enhanced athletes. So, we can only give some general guidelines to people about what is right and what is wrong and then, as you said, its up to them, to evaluate this advice and maybe alter it a little bit according to their personal findings. But in my experience, beginners or intermediates should not try to make their own routines because they are usually imbalanced and dont lead to maximum results.

Kostas

Muscular Strength Athlete and Content Manager 6 Years Lifting Experience Bachelors in Molecular Chemistry/Biochemistry, Working towards Masters Lifting Style & Philosophy : Aikido, Energy, Balance, Flexibility, Posture
GT_turbo
GT_turbo g Gregor Trost
183 Post(s)
183 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Train for a sport Date Joined: February 2, 2014
Posted

Interesting thread and discussion, but I think there are as many opinions as there are different people :) I agree with all of you but still have different opinion :D

 

There are some basic natural rules, which are same for all. Some very important issues pointed out John with anatomy geometry. And I think, for instance, you can train just for hyperthropy. Let's take some guy in wintertime who wants to get bigger before summer. He will look for some proven routines and pick up the one which works best for majority. He give a s*it if he train strenght or endurance, he must build some weight and ego before summer. Of course one will said he is training hyperthrophy, one that he train endurance. Both are right, both have different point of view and both can argue forever :)

I think when it's about "advices" especially for beginners, there are absolutely some bullet proof and by-time proven routines and strategies for success. More known is one type of routine, more is also scientificaly checked and monitored. And for some very wide used and known routines there is also scientifical approach which confirm or reject them. Of course, it is not neccessary true they are best choice and most efficient, but they definitely works. But it's about anatomy, genetics, true following of proper technique, tempo etc etc, which determine final success. But you can never find out that through forum, because usually the one who ask doesn't know himself good enough and some who will answer, even less.

 

And because of thread address itself and slightly disagree with Kostas about strength training and gaining mass I would like to point out following thing:

I ask myself for a long time, why plyometry is not more common part in training routines of all athletes. Ok, you don't have to answer me for a 250 pounds bodybuilder :) But if you look sprinters...they generate brutal forces and are able to lift heavy squats. But they definitely don't train the same as weight lifters and their muscle section can be different and they can lift same weight. Because strength is not related only to the muscle size but also to contraction speed of muscle. So strength improvement is not neccessary connected with muscle mass gain and therefore I think answer for weight gain vs strength can not be black&white.

 

BR, Gregor

Super Hermanite NCSF personal trainer NLP coach IronMan finisher
muscular strength
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