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Harley1962
Harley1962 g Harley Baldwin
50 Post(s)
50 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: March 3, 2014
Posted

After reading some advice on my previous DL video, today I decided to "test" those suggestions using a Sumo stance.

 

For sure, I feel more leg involvement and with the CG (center of gravity) being directly over the "base of support" it does make it a bit easier--especially given my longer legs and tight hips that seems to require a more "open" stance.

 

I know there's a lot of room for improvement, and perhaps I shouldn't have gone as heavy (this is 198 lbs. / 90 KG, my weight is 164 lbs. / 74 KG.) given that this was my first Sumo experience. But overall, it felt a bit more "natural" to my 52 year-old body versus the conventional DL...I wonder IF I should now spend the majority of my time doing (and perfecting) Sumos rather than conventionals?

 

I am VERY new to compound lifts, and just want to concentrate on doing them correctly. It's not easy at age 52, but I feel that I have the core strength and development from my earlier military service and sports participation.

 

Ideas & constructive advice appreciated!

 

Harley

Daniel_Meyer
Daniel_Meyer g Daniel Meyer
518 Post(s)
518 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted
Posted By: Harley1962

After reading some advice on my previous DL video, today I decided to "test" those suggestions using a Sumo stance.

 

For sure, I feel more leg involvement and with the CG (center of gravity) being directly over the "base of support" it does make it a bit easier--especially given my longer legs and tight hips that seems to require a more "open" stance.

 

I know there's a lot of room for improvement, and perhaps I shouldn't have gone as heavy (this is 198 lbs. / 90 KG, my weight is 164 lbs. / 74 KG.) given that this was my first Sumo experience. But overall, it felt a bit more "natural" to my 52 year-old body versus the conventional DL...I wonder IF I should now spend the majority of my time doing (and perfecting) Sumos rather than conventionals?

 

I am VERY new to compound lifts, and just want to concentrate on doing them correctly. It's not easy at age 52, but I feel that I have the core strength and development from my earlier military service and sports participation.

 

Ideas & constructive advice appreciated!

 

Harley

Firstly, I'm very happy you made the switch to sumo style! It seems to suit your physique better.

 

In terms of the actual deadlift footage, that's a great start. Here are some of the issues I picked up:

 

  • You tend to initiate the movement with your lower back. As the sumo deadlift incorporates more of the lower limb you need to think of driving your hips forward to initiate the movement. As a consequence of this you will want to create the motion of locking your knees out and pulling up with the bar.
  • After your first rep you slightly lose out on your starting position. What I mean by this is that you don't sit into the deadlift position like you did on your first rep. By doing this you remove a big portion of the leg drive. What you need to do is reset after each rep. I don't mean a 5 sec reset just a subtle change into a better starting position.
  • You need to get as close to the bar as possible. By doing this you place your centre of gravity closer to the line of pull which will help you balance more and get a stronger pull.
  • Focus on driving your knees out and locking them. A common mistake is people tend to let their knees collapse in which in turn creates poor leg drive and deadlift fluidity.
  • Don't worry too much about over controlling the lowering of the BB. From an injury point of view I hate to see it as it places unecessary loads of the back. "Control" about two-thirds of the motion then sort of let the BB go and hit the floor. Then take a little bit of time reset, create tension through the bar before you pull then rip it off the floor.

 

Sport Rehabilitation BSc GSR Sport Rehabilitator and S&C coach at Boston United FC Super Hermanite Twitter: Daniel_Meyer99
Rishi_Ramsamooj
Rishi_Ramsamooj g Rishi Ramsamooj
140 Post(s)
140 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted
Posted By: Harley1962

After reading some advice on my previous DL video, today I decided to "test" those suggestions using a Sumo stance.

 

For sure, I feel more leg involvement and with the CG (center of gravity) being directly over the "base of support" it does make it a bit easier--especially given my longer legs and tight hips that seems to require a more "open" stance.

 

I know there's a lot of room for improvement, and perhaps I shouldn't have gone as heavy (this is 198 lbs. / 90 KG, my weight is 164 lbs. / 74 KG.) given that this was my first Sumo experience. But overall, it felt a bit more "natural" to my 52 year-old body versus the conventional DL...I wonder IF I should now spend the majority of my time doing (and perfecting) Sumos rather than conventionals?

 

I am VERY new to compound lifts, and just want to concentrate on doing them correctly. It's not easy at age 52, but I feel that I have the core strength and development from my earlier military service and sports participation.

 

Ideas & constructive advice appreciated!

 

Harley

im the same way dude. Sumos just feel so much more natural to me. I feel a lot it more in the right places. Good form tho. Daniel gave you some good points

18 years old Training for aesthetic athletics No roids just rage Majoring in business management Changing people's lives
jmboiardi
jmboiardi p John M Boiardi
2.6K Post(s)
2.6K Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted

Harley,

 

Daniel has some good points. Keep at it and the form will come. In general, I think taller people or people with longer legs do better with sumos versus more stockier people with shorter legs and/or arms. Not sure if that is 100% correct but just an observation.

 

BTW - looking good for 52 years young and keep at it :-)

 

John

34 years of lifting and nutritional experience and resident "old man" :-) MS Athlete and past Super Hermanite since 2013.
Harley1962
Harley1962 g Harley Baldwin
50 Post(s)
50 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: March 3, 2014
Posted

Wow! Thanks SO much to Daniel (and John and Rishi as well!) for your comments and suggestions. They are ALL very much appreciated.

 

Daniel, I understand your points and agree 100% with everything, however I still have a few "nit-pick" things to figure out (and if you look at my original / conventional DL I think some of the SAME bad habits are also in the Sumo--or maybe I'm just too critical of myself??)

 

1) I STILL cannot seem to get that "hip hinge" movement that's SO important in ANY style of DL....how do I know (feel) if I am doing it properly? I have seen a LOT of videos where the guys just over-exaggerate the LEAN back at the top of the movement--which I know to be IN-correct in terms of assuring that the hips were involved.....ALSO....I have seen where guys get their butt WAY down (like a squat), and initiate the pull from that point, BUT again I understand that at the very moment of starting the pull there is a slight "upward tilt" at the hips which causes the butt to move away from the floor. I have watched a lot of different guys on YouTube, and the vast majority lean back while taking up the slack on the bar, almost nobody initiates the PULL from an "ass to grass" squatting position! Do you guys agree??

 

2) Daniel, I completely understand what you are saying re : "resetting" for a moment at the bottom of each rep, but on my original DL video I was "roundly criticized" by a certain (pedantic) individual who seems to always "have all the answers"; he wrote that I should NOT relax at the bottom (eccentric), but actually KEEP the tension through ALL the reps UNTIL finished?! So now I'm in a quandry--since my training partner ALSO says that I MUST be controlled through ALL the reps, and just take a VERY soft "touch" on the floor (like I did here)--but maintain tension for the next reps. For sure that slow eccentric DOES work my lower back, and I'm happy to be a bit more "relaxed" by dropping the BB from knee-height (no problem at my gym), then re-grip / re-set and initiate a "fresh" pull for each rep....but in doing this am I "cheating" myself out of TUT, or am I simply "protecting my 52 year-old back", ha ha!! Opinions?? I felt SOME sore-ness in the lower back for the rest of the day (equally on both sides of the lower lumbar spine), but today I feel fine. And this was my FIRST Sumo lifting experience (5 sets x 10 reps + a few extra for this video)

 

3) As for getting the bar closer to my legs / shins...Daniel was very perceptive, as this video was made after all my working sets (starting at 75KG, progressing to 90 KG), but during one of the sets I did a nice scrape on my right shin, with the normal blood trickling down.....I guess I'm a "real man" now? I must have subconsciously moved the bar AWAY from my shins a bit for this video--in order to avoid further wounding my legs! I guess I need to be more careful, or apply tape before doing these next time!

 

So to summarize : Should I NEVER do conventional DL's again, and concentrate on Sumos from now on? And, would it be wise to REDUCE the weight a bit in the coming sessions just to REALLY concentrate on getting that "hip-hinge", and outward knee bend? Again, my trainer wants to "push" me to my full potential (he's 40 and looks like a rock, but of course has been lifting for years and years), so he's big on progressive overload, etc....but with these compound lifts there is potential for injury (and not so easy for him to spot me in case of a failed lift), and I do not want to suffer an injury in the process of "learning" DL's and squats....

 

By the way, I am trying to do DL's twice a week and never on the same day as squats (also done twice a week); normally I do 4 or 5 sets, with 10-12 reps per set. At this early stage in my leanring compounds, I have also read that perhaps it's wiser to do HIGHER reps ranges (12-16 reps--with lower weight if necessary), just to form the motor-skills and necessary nervous system adaptation.

 

Sorry to be so long-winded....as much as I like all the great info on this site I am also learning a lot by watching videos of other people actually TEACHING the lifts and making corrections on a new lifter; this is also very useful to me, and if anybody has some good video links for that I am always appreciative for those resources.

 

Thanks again!

 

Harley

Daniel_Meyer
Daniel_Meyer g Daniel Meyer
518 Post(s)
518 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted
Posted By: Harley1962

Wow! Thanks SO much to Daniel (and John and Rishi as well!) for your comments and suggestions. They are ALL very much appreciated.

 

Daniel, I understand your points and agree 100% with everything, however I still have a few "nit-pick" things to figure out (and if you look at my original / conventional DL I think some of the SAME bad habits are also in the Sumo--or maybe I'm just too critical of myself??)

 

1) I STILL cannot seem to get that "hip hinge" movement that's SO important in ANY style of DL....how do I know (feel) if I am doing it properly? I have seen a LOT of videos where the guys just over-exaggerate the LEAN back at the top of the movement--which I know to be IN-correct in terms of assuring that the hips were involved.....ALSO....I have seen where guys get their butt WAY down (like a squat), and initiate the pull from that point, BUT again I understand that at the very moment of starting the pull there is a slight "upward tilt" at the hips which causes the butt to move away from the floor. I have watched a lot of different guys on YouTube, and the vast majority lean back while taking up the slack on the bar, almost nobody initiates the PULL from an "ass to grass" squatting position! Do you guys agree??

 

2) Daniel, I completely understand what you are saying re : "resetting" for a moment at the bottom of each rep, but on my original DL video I was "roundly criticized" by a certain (pedantic) individual who seems to always "have all the answers"; he wrote that I should NOT relax at the bottom (eccentric), but actually KEEP the tension through ALL the reps UNTIL finished?! So now I'm in a quandry--since my training partner ALSO says that I MUST be controlled through ALL the reps, and just take a VERY soft "touch" on the floor (like I did here)--but maintain tension for the next reps. For sure that slow eccentric DOES work my lower back, and I'm happy to be a bit more "relaxed" by dropping the BB from knee-height (no problem at my gym), then re-grip / re-set and initiate a "fresh" pull for each rep....but in doing this am I "cheating" myself out of TUT, or am I simply "protecting my 52 year-old back", ha ha!! Opinions?? I felt SOME sore-ness in the lower back for the rest of the day (equally on both sides of the lower lumbar spine), but today I feel fine. And this was my FIRST Sumo lifting experience (5 sets x 10 reps + a few extra for this video)

 

3) As for getting the bar closer to my legs / shins...Daniel was very perceptive, as this video was made after all my working sets (starting at 75KG, progressing to 90 KG), but during one of the sets I did a nice scrape on my right shin, with the normal blood trickling down.....I guess I'm a "real man" now? I must have subconsciously moved the bar AWAY from my shins a bit for this video--in order to avoid further wounding my legs! I guess I need to be more careful, or apply tape before doing these next time!

 

So to summarize : Should I NEVER do conventional DL's again, and concentrate on Sumos from now on? And, would it be wise to REDUCE the weight a bit in the coming sessions just to REALLY concentrate on getting that "hip-hinge", and outward knee bend? Again, my trainer wants to "push" me to my full potential (he's 40 and looks like a rock, but of course has been lifting for years and years), so he's big on progressive overload, etc....but with these compound lifts there is potential for injury (and not so easy for him to spot me in case of a failed lift), and I do not want to suffer an injury in the process of "learning" DL's and squats....

 

By the way, I am trying to do DL's twice a week and never on the same day as squats (also done twice a week); normally I do 4 or 5 sets, with 10-12 reps per set. At this early stage in my leanring compounds, I have also read that perhaps it's wiser to do HIGHER reps ranges (12-16 reps--with lower weight if necessary), just to form the motor-skills and necessary nervous system adaptation.

 

Sorry to be so long-winded....as much as I like all the great info on this site I am also learning a lot by watching videos of other people actually TEACHING the lifts and making corrections on a new lifter; this is also very useful to me, and if anybody has some good video links for that I am always appreciative for those resources.

 

Thanks again!

 

Harley

In the sumo style the hip hinge doesn't need to be so pronounced however, it must exsist to place emphasis on the posterior kinetic chain and take loading off the spine. The way to work on the hip hinge is just to "sit back" into the movement. There is not much specific training you can do for this but all I imagine is a band wrapped around my hips pulling me back. This allows me to break at the hips and knees at the correct time.

 

As for the re-setting of the motion I'm a huge fan of removing tension, re-setting then creating tension and pulling. I only advise this from purely an injury point of view (it's my career you see). I HATE the deadlift from an eccentric point of view as it creates an excessive loading. This is where way too many beginners fail as they over emphasise the eccentric and basically damage their lower back early on. I don't care how flat the lower back stays excessive loading is still present and if people are not careful injuries will occur.

 

This all being said that's why I favour rack pulls over deadlifts. With rack pulls you can really emphasise a hip drive coupled with lower back movement and it decreases risk of injury due to the removal of movement range.

 

Just to clarify your goals are you looking to put on size, get strong, become more functional?

Sport Rehabilitation BSc GSR Sport Rehabilitator and S&C coach at Boston United FC Super Hermanite Twitter: Daniel_Meyer99
Harley1962
Harley1962 g Harley Baldwin
50 Post(s)
50 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: March 3, 2014
Posted

That's an extremely logical and well thought-out response Daniel, cheers for that! As mentioned before, there are always a few "know it all's" who espouse THEIR way of doing things as being "THE ONLY WAY", when in fact we are all different in our bone structure and therefore may need to apply subtle modifications. I was once young myself and clearly recall wanting to categorize and differentiate nearly everything into "black or white", when the reality is that the longer you live and the more life experiences one has it becomes increasingly apparent that most things in life tend to be differentiated in varying shades of grey....

 

I'll take your suggestions to heart, even though I'll probably get some "flack" for dropping the BB from shin-height on the eccentric (from my trainer, not the gym!) But I also see a positive side in that in each "re-setting" for every rep, I will get the chance to develop the proper technique for that initial "pull", or as you say "rip it from the floor", while also thinking about the hip-hinge and driving my heels down (as John suggested).

 

I have never done a proper rack pull, and will research that on line further. I do ike the idea of doing some form of DL for the forseeable future, probably Sumo since it seems to suit me.

 

In a different thread (although related in that it's another compound lift) I was encouraged to do front squats, rather than rear as they seem to work more leg / quad and they also feel better to me in terms of CG and balancing. I just need to keep loose in the wrists and use only the fingers to balance the BB, but that's another thread...

 

At my age, I cannot state emphatically what my ultimate goals are, although I do like the changes in my physique thus far. However, those compounds really have "opened my eyes" to various muscular imbalances so increased strength is also important.

 

Many thanks for your continued time in responding so promptly and carefully.

 

Harley

Scott_Herman
Scott_Herman a Scott Herman
7.1K Post(s)
7.1K Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: August 8, 2008
Posted

@Daniel_Meyer hit all the points I was going to mention. Great job man!

@Harley1962 maybe try getting some long socks so you are not afriad to drag the bar up your shins?

Need 1 on 1 coaching? Send me a direct message to learn more!
Daniel_Meyer
Daniel_Meyer g Daniel Meyer
518 Post(s)
518 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted
Posted By: Harley1962

That's an extremely logical and well thought-out response Daniel, cheers for that! As mentioned before, there are always a few "know it all's" who espouse THEIR way of doing things as being "THE ONLY WAY", when in fact we are all different in our bone structure and therefore may need to apply subtle modifications. I was once young myself and clearly recall wanting to categorize and differentiate nearly everything into "black or white", when the reality is that the longer you live and the more life experiences one has it becomes increasingly apparent that most things in life tend to be differentiated in varying shades of grey....

 

I'll take your suggestions to heart, even though I'll probably get some "flack" for dropping the BB from shin-height on the eccentric (from my trainer, not the gym!) But I also see a positive side in that in each "re-setting" for every rep, I will get the chance to develop the proper technique for that initial "pull", or as you say "rip it from the floor", while also thinking about the hip-hinge and driving my heels down (as John suggested).

 

I have never done a proper rack pull, and will research that on line further. I do ike the idea of doing some form of DL for the forseeable future, probably Sumo since it seems to suit me.

 

In a different thread (although related in that it's another compound lift) I was encouraged to do front squats, rather than rear as they seem to work more leg / quad and they also feel better to me in terms of CG and balancing. I just need to keep loose in the wrists and use only the fingers to balance the BB, but that's another thread...

 

At my age, I cannot state emphatically what my ultimate goals are, although I do like the changes in my physique thus far. However, those compounds really have "opened my eyes" to various muscular imbalances so increased strength is also important.

 

Many thanks for your continued time in responding so promptly and carefully.

 

Harley

Harley,

 

I really appreciate you actually listening to my responses and questioning my logic behind things. In terms of the individuality of lifters I used to be so one track minded and was constently thinking its one way or another but since joining this site and helping more and more individuals you really do get to realise that everyone is different and has different responses.

 

In terms of your age I would also like to offer my adivce. I 100% agree that you should be focusing on strength and function and let the physique mirror the effort you put in at the gym. What I don't want you to do however, is get tied up in the lifting as heavy as you can before learning the basic movement patterns. A lot of trainers like to throw people in the gym and get them to lift as heavy as possible before learning how to do so safetly and correctly in the most beneficial and efficient way possible. I'm a huge adovcate of learning the movement patterns and teaching the muscles how to create these movement patterns before emphasising strength in terms of getting the weight from position A to B. To me its more about learning how to get the weight from A to B.

 

Also with squats, I'm currently only doing front squats. Like yourself I lack the flexibilty to get my hands into the required position. However, I'm not a huge fan of that position anyway due to the stresses it puts through your forearms and neural tissue. I tend to cross my arms and rest the bar on my anterior delts that way. The problem with this position is that it encourages thoracic flexion which can offset you when squatting. In order to combat this you must have the "core strength" to keep an upright posture.

Sport Rehabilitation BSc GSR Sport Rehabilitator and S&C coach at Boston United FC Super Hermanite Twitter: Daniel_Meyer99
Daniel_Meyer
Daniel_Meyer g Daniel Meyer
518 Post(s)
518 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Bodybuilding Date Joined: October 10, 2013
Posted

Harley,

 

Just wanted to ask you how you are getting on with your deadlifts? Notice any improvements? Any further questions you want to ask?

Sport Rehabilitation BSc GSR Sport Rehabilitator and S&C coach at Boston United FC Super Hermanite Twitter: Daniel_Meyer99
Harley1962
Harley1962 g Harley Baldwin
50 Post(s)
50 Post(s) Gender: Male Goal: Gain Muscle Date Joined: March 3, 2014
Posted

Hi Daniel, thanks for your follow-up!

 

Actually, I sent a message directly to your private "inbox", so IF you have the time maybe you can read that and offer some ideas?

Some of the questions were a bit "off-topic" to this thread, so I decided it would be better if I wrote you privately.

 

Thanks in advance and hope to hear from you!

 

Harley

muscular strength
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